I’ve made my thoughts about who pays on the first date pretty clear. But I have been party to conversations with women who say they would like it if the man did pay. Without judgment, I listen and there is something of a tear between the mind and heart.
They class themselves as modern and subscribe to a lot of the feminist ideas (mind) but deep down in their (heart) they would like the man to pay. I can see they are conflicted about the whole thing.
It started successfully enough. The conversation was flowing in the semi-swanky restaurant my date had invited me to. We talked jobs, family and travelling. He wanted nibbles, I picked at them and, when the bill came, I offered to split as I always do. But later, when he got uncomfortably touchy-feely on the dance-floor (there was live music) and asked me back to his (I politely declined), I was weirded out – but not all that surprised.
Although I have to say @GeorginaLawton does point to some of the power struggle I have heard my friends talk about. (although I have to say, going to a semi-swanky restaurant on the first date and getting touchy-feely is certainly a problem regardless)
Would I have been less offended at his suggestive behaviour if he had whacked out a wad of £50 notes? Admitting “yes” suggests that I’m prepared to let dating turn into a “buy and sell service” placing myself as the “commodity”
And this is the issue!
Taken in isolation, going Dutch and being asked for sex are two semi-expected outcomes of a mad, mad, Tinder-tinted world. But combined with all of the above, they create a cringeworthy hybrid of poor dating etiquette that is worthy of ghosting, where you simply disappear (don’t ever ghost – it’s brutal).
This is a societal legacy and I feel it has some similarity to the Stockholm syndrome. Turning dating into a buy and sell service, as Georgina admits is exactly what it use to be and there are still echos/reflections of this in dating and way beyond in society. Back then things seemed simpler, the man bought the dinner therefore proving he was interested, could pay for the women and his statute in society? (i’m trying ok…). Legacy & nostalgia is hard to get over but it is the enemy of progress.
I certainly wouldn’t blame Georgina for how she feels, I understand but I don’t agree. I guess the fact she can verbalise it is a good thing and maybe in the black and white of guardian she will shake off the shackles of the legacy past?
TR: Why did you decide to create the sign “White Women Voted for Trump”?
AP: We need to be really honest about why we’re here. There was a sense for me of being at the march and in community with folks that were wanting to resist this horrifying reality, but also not wanting folks to get complacent.
TR: How did people respond to you and your sign?
AP: Most were saying, “Not this white woman,” or “No one I know!” I’d say, “[Fifty-three percent] of white women voted for Trump. That means someone you know, someone who is in close community with you, voted for Trump. You need to organize your people.” And some people said, “Oh, I’m so ashamed.” Don’t be ashamed; organize your people.
That’s why the photo was such a great moment to capture, because it tells the story of white women in this moment wanting to just show up in a very superficial way and not wanting to do the hard work of making change, of challenging their own privilege. You’re here protesting, but don’t forget: The folks that you live with every single day—and probably some of the women that decided to come to the march—voted for Trump, made the decision to vote against self-interests to maintain their white supremacist way of life.
Its something I’ve thought a lot about, especially when thinking about diversity and inclusion. Its one of the things which has bugged me when thinking about the numerous women in tech events. Not taking anything away from them but if all the women are white, middle class and went to the same university – then we got a long way to go.
Maybe it also starts to explain why a lot of the women (of colour if thats what you prefer) I talk to are unsure about the term feminist?
Rather than weight in to this topic with limited insight, I thought I’d share some things I saw and heard.
Yes, we all know it’s the right thing to do. But Michael Kimmel makes the surprising, funny, practical case for treating men and women equally in the workplace and at home. It’s not a zero-sum game, but a win-win that will result in more opportunity and more happiness for everybody.
The time has come around, its been a while since the last debate on BBC Merseyside Radio. We scratched the idea of Masculinity and tomorrow its time for the radio debate. Guests include Ngunan, Elisa, Ahmed, Matt and Myself. Tune in live online from 8pm BST.
The fact most males are paid way beyond females is terrible, but hardly surprising. The gap is pretty vast. This is part of the reason why I find it extremely hard when women, have said to me in past, theres no real need for feminism anymore. Very difficult indeed!
It was slightly sad to see Siren a dating app where females get to browse profiles and ask questions of males in a safe enviornment; is no more.
Its a shame as it really was one of those dating apps I had hoped would gather the attention for good reason, bumble seemed to eclipse it for reasons I’m unsure it deserves. They certainly were blogging and saying all good things. I was just waiting for it to come to the UK and of course Android.
Here at Siren, we like to consider ourselves feminists, and on the surface, it might be easy for us to claim to be a ‘feminist dating app.’ After all—we’re a tech company founded by fierce, empowered women of color, aimed at fostering intimacy and undermining the culture of objectification that runs through so many dating apps. But is this enough?
In light of current national and global political circumstances, we feel it is incumbent on us to declare that no, this isn’t enough. Feminism is an ongoing process, not a special club or a badge to wear with pride. So here are a few of the ways we are challenging ourselves to earn the title “feminist dating app,” and as always, we welcome your feedback on how we can better fulfill this mission.
Great words and I had planned on blogging about this much earlier in 2017, especially point 5.
MEN CAN BE FEMINISTS, TOO
We get it—all this talk about empowering women can be intimidating for men. Does our emphasis on the struggle for women’s liberation mean that we hate men, or respect them any less than our female, or nonbinary members?
On the contrary. We’ll be frank: men, we need you, too. There are conversations that will never catch on with the culture at large without male allies amplifying our voices, and let’s be honest—sometimes you guys are sexy as hell, to boot!
So if you are a man who dates women—or would like to—we’re glad you’re here, and we have created resources especially with you in mind.
It’s still legal in the UK for a company to require female members of staff to wear high heels at work against their will. Dress code laws should be changed so that women have the option to wear flat formal shoes at work, if they wish. Current formal work dress codes are out-dated and sexist.
Yesterday I got a email telling me 152,420 people signed the petition, which is great as 100,000 was needed to get it debated.
When I first signed up it was early and there was little people from around Manchester on it. Then suddenly there was a ton of supermodel type women showing up. Most men would have loved it. But something didn’t seem right, I couldn’t tell for sure but it felt like quite a lot might be fake (from previous experiences and what I’ve read, it certainly seemed possible)?
Fake profiles is a quick way to keep people on the site and interested, or keep them using the app?
That was off-putting but then they changed the terms so if a woman messaged a man, had 24 hours to reply. Encouraging/forcing you to look everyday at least. This for me is not the habit I can not see a positive outcome from. I understand some of the reasoning but it feels unsustainable, at least to my mind? I check my dating profile only once or twice a month (to be fair this is very low), unless I’m chatting with a woman or planning a date of course. I have to question the benefit to the people using Bumble vs their ability to tell investers they have a large number of uniques per day?
I just posted a blog about undressed which I tagged #nsfw, as I recognise certain people will find the whole premise a little difficult to stomach? So because of this, I thought I’d post a blog I have had as draft for a long while.
Sex works rights… Why?
It’s the injustice which winds me up. Like the debate around Ecstasy, I haven’t got any skin in the game (if there was a better word I’d use it) but I can see the logical conclusion without social/societal bias.
The idea of sex workers is something which makes people go red. run away or ignore the whole thing. It’s frankly shocking and so crazy that we haven’t grown up enough to talk about this in a practical way. I mean there are many peoples lives at risk simply because we go all red when thinking about sex.
Everyone has an opinion about how to legislate sex work (whether to legalize it, ban it or even tax it) … but what do workers themselves think would work best? Activist Toni Mac explains four legal models that are being used around the world and shows us the model that she believes will work best to keep sex workers safe and offer greater self-determination. “If you care about gender equality or poverty or migration or public health, then sex worker rights matter to you,” she says. “Make space for us in your movements.”
Valerie Scott always wanted to be a sex worker and has extensive experience in her chosen profession. She is a founding member and legal co-ordinator of Sex Professionals of Canada, a sex worker rights organization. She has been a passionate advocate for her colleague’s human, civil, and legal rights for the past 30 years. She has testified at Canada’s Senate and at several Parliamentary committees. She has spoken at numerous community meetings, colleges, universities, and conferences about the humanity of sex workers and the need for full decriminalization of adult sex work.
Hopefully more countries will follow suit or at least try (similar to the legalisation of drugs maybe?) because right now the whole sex work industry sounds like a total mess. (just like the UK right now, to be honest) Too many people (mainly women) are caught in the middle one way or another. Frankly we all are letting down these people by simply not listening.
I need you working with me and me working with you on how we raise our sons and teach them to be men – that it’s OK to not be dominating – that it’s OK to have feelings and emotions – that it’s OK to promote equality – that it’s OK to have women who are just friends and that’s it – that my liberation as a man is tied to your liberation as a woman.
So profound a point and ever so elegant and simple!
I don’t quite know when it happened to me, but at a early age I could see and smell the macho hierarchy bullshit. It generally drove me a little nuts. I mean how dare people tell me I can’t have female friends who are not simply potentials. This honestly was said to me multiple times over my life. Either they are potentials or they are not worth investing time in! Seriously! This warped view for what? The dream of being alpha king kong of the jungle?
1. noun [alpha male of the group or alpha male other guy]: a socially comfortable male who competes with a pickup artist for a woman or interferes with a pickup artist’s game.
2. verb: to remove a potential male competitor—through physical, verbal, or psychological tactics—from a group of women. Also: outalpha. Origin: Tyler Durden
Some key points of the macho bullshit…
Don’t cry or openly express emotions
Do not show weakness or fear
Demonstrate power control
Show aggression and dominance always (be the alpha)
Do not be “like a woman”
Do not be “like a gay man”
Make decisions, do not ask for help
Don’t ask questions?
View the oppose sex as property or objects
You can see this stuff play out in books like the game. Its something I have battled against many times, as I’ve seen too many good men around me hold themselves to similar rules, unknowingly buying into/clinging onto some type of old fashioned/myth of what makes a man?
I hate certain situations when I don’t have the energy to battle against this macho bullshit or manbox if you prefer? I feel like those Manchester couples at Salt and Paper in Eyespy, wanting to say something but not having the energy or enough fight in me to do so. I’ve taken a slightly more manipulative approach now, as that doesn’t put me directly into competition/conflict with their own view. It takes longer but I’ve seen glimmers of a break through.
Sex, in particular, is an important part of “being a man”. Sexual conquests (and believe me, that word is chosen deliberately) are part of how men establish and reaffirm their manhood. The need to “get” sex is all-encompassing because the more of it you have, the higher “status” you have as a man.
But on the idea of how to stem the toxic masculinity I found this interesting when considering what I said earlier.
With all this in mind, we’re forced to ask just how we can start fixing men and repairing the damage done by toxic masculine ideals. And the answer is to speak up. The answer is to push back. The answer is to take responsibility. The answer is education.
We need more men to step up and be counted. We need more men to call out others for their shitty behavior, to refuse to let sexual assault be “get some action”, to intervene when we see harassment or assaults going down regardless of the gender of the victim.
The first episode of CBS’s forthcoming Supergirl series has leaked online a full six months before it was scheduled to air. Two versions of the 46-minute episode (one in full HD and another in lower resolution) made their way onto torrenting sites late last week, with BitTorrent news site TorrentFreak describing the leak as a “complete surprise” to the pirating community.
I watched the pilot episode and it struck me as fun and very like the Flash (not really a surprise as its the same kind of team). I’m not the only one who says so either in this spoiler free view.
To be fair I checked out a couple of episodes but it hasn’t grabbed me, so its just sitting there waiting for me to watch the rest sometime. However, I have to admit its got a good feeling throughout.
Agent Carter, is a sly analogy for the state of women today, especially women in geek culture. The show reflects pop media buzz topics, like Gamergate, Fake Geek Girl memes, and the sexual harassment of creators, through the lens of a time that seems archaic. However, the topics, the misogyny and inequality that Peggy deals with, is anything but archaic. These are things that modern women deal with on a daily basis: the street harassment, the catcalling, the sexualization, the dehumanizing, the diminishing, and the belittling.
Peggy Carter is the modern woman, capable and strong, but forced into a world that will not accept her for who she is and will not listen to her speaking out against the men who put her down
When I first saw posters for the Madmax reboot, I pretty much dismissed it but then I started hearing how interesting it actually is and how it passed the Bechdel test…
The Bechdel Test is a film litmus test. To pass, a movie must have two female characters, with names, who talk to each other, about something other than a man. It’s not perfect but it helps illustrate how utterly underrepresented women’s voices are in film. “Mad Max: Fury Road” passes on a level heretofore unheard of outside “chick flicks.” There is a moment late in the film when no less than twelve women — seven of them named — are talking together. On the one hand I am mortified this is cause for celebration. On the other hand, it’s a decisive victory worthy of a fist pump.
I’m not saying this is all something new, just interesting to see a few come out about the same kind of time. It would be nice if Hollywood would take more risks with the under represented.
Sure its a glitch in the matrix and we’ll be back to the 50 shades of greys again soon enough…
Its certainly could/would work better than as a TV series which diary of the call girl got turned into. Its worth reading both blogs as they so very different in many accounts! The feminist message of empowerment could really work well, wonder if Zoe ever considered it as a film, especially as she use to be in the film business herself…
I do not need to identify myself as a feminist to believe in equal rights and opportunities. I live in a world where I am free to make this choice, it is my right to do so, even if you don’t agree with it.
I agree, and I support her rights to make the choice not to identify as a feminist. Its ultimately up her, I just suggested she might want to consider it.
I do not believe that men and women are equal. I believe we should have equal rights and opportunities, but I celebrate our differences, and I can accept that these difference may lead to a divide in political, economical, cultural and social representations. This does not necessarily mean that equal rights and opportunities were not given.
Its all about equal rights and equal opportunities. Everybody is unique and different, I do celebrate this too. But they should have equal rights and opportunities.
So I think were saying the same thing pretty much, although she doesn’t use the label. However when it comes to the movement against and women against feminism, I’m less certain we agree.
It is my opinion, that in more recent times, feminism has been tainted. Something must be causing these women to feel like feminism is trying to make them feel like a victim, claim oppression, or be ashamed of wanting to be a stay at home mum instead of lawyer or doctor. These feelings don’t come from no where, and whether or not feminism represents these ideas or not, it does not make the opinions of these women any less valid. Maybe in their cases they don’t need feminism anymore because for them, the feminist movement has done its job, but I think it’s a damn shame that such an amazing movement has become so misunderstood and warped by today’s society.
I feel people are people and in groups, there will always be parasites. Or in this case people who claim to be feminist who don’t respect other peoples right to make decisions for themselves. For example when Jody wrote about her breast augmentation in the Guardian. The hateful comments from radical, self righteous, hypocritical, or even judgmental feminists was shocking.
I will admit I am finding more smart women who subscribe to the values of feminism but refuse to be called one. And its their right. I feel the word is in transition of being reclaimed, maybe in many years it won’t be a taboo to be called a feminist…. maybe?
He asks the question about FEMINIST verses feminist. Or I you could say big F vs small f feminist. I did find the language politics highlighted by Tom Scott very interesting too. Although I can’t get behind Equalist.
…because of the attitudes of the FEMINISTS I find it difficult to claim I’m a feminist, so Im just going to go on record as saying I’m an Equalist.
Equalist for me is like when somebody says I’m African American. I have been called it before while in America, to which I had to say I prefer Black thank you . I understand and respect why some people want to use that term but it feels like a half way house, and for what?
Feminist stirs the pot and conjures up thoughts in the people who hear it. Same as Black, same as Gay, same as Geek…
I guess at the end of the day as long as the values are equivalent it doesn’t matter what you use. Now thats something I can get respect.
Paying for a women on a date has nothing to do with feminism.
To me, it’s a way for a man to show, very clearly, that he likes you. Enough to try to impress you. Enough to make some effort. On a bigger scale, it’s a way for a man to prove he will be a good boyfriend – thoughtful, kind, generous and supportive.
Of course relationships are not one-way streets. Many women earn more than their partners and end up being the ones supporting their family financially in the long-run. But that initial gesture of paying for a simple dinner, a lunch or a tea signals an intention to support you, as well as showing that they come from a good family that values manners. In short, it says ‘I like you and I’d like to look after you.’
I disagree! Why is it that the writer (Yvette) assumes the man should “sweep the woman off her feet!” Why is it the man needs to prove he will be a good boyfriend. Human beings, like to be swept off their feet at some point. But equally everybody needs to prove there self worth to potential partners regardless of the sex.
This emphasis on going Dutch from the start makes my heart sink. How exactly is a man supposed to sweep you off your feet if he can’t buy you dinner and roses any more?
If you can’t think of another way to impress, that with your credit card… you are doing it all wrong! The point of going dutch is to take the whole pay/cost off the table. I wouldn’t mind being swept off my feet every once in a while, just because I’m a man doesn’t mean I should expect anything less? As Yvette says it has nothing to do with feminism but I can already see people like Milo relating the two.